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	<title>Comments on: Commuter Rail Proposed for Indianapolis</title>
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	<description>Passionate About Cities</description>
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		<title>By: mattmcc</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-3991</link>
		<dc:creator>mattmcc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-3991</guid>
		<description>Time to move ahead in Naptown with rail-based transit. The ex-Conrail route (nee-NYC) to Terre Haute to the west and Muncie to the east is an ideal addition to the Noblesville/Tipton line. Indy has an idea hub-spoke set up and could have a myriad of intermediate stops and make Indianapolis&#039; dowtown vibrant all the time. Also, the ex-PRR route goes sooooo close the the airport that DMUs to/from the airport is a no-brainer. Gas is back above $3 and it is NOT going to get cheaper and is running out faster than anticipated (see Nat&#039; Geo-2004-&quot;The End of Cheap Oil). Transit is a quality of life issue and reduces congestion and wait times and improves productivity and connectivity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Time to move ahead in Naptown with rail-based transit. The ex-Conrail route (nee-NYC) to Terre Haute to the west and Muncie to the east is an ideal addition to the Noblesville/Tipton line. Indy has an idea hub-spoke set up and could have a myriad of intermediate stops and make Indianapolis&#39; dowtown vibrant all the time. Also, the ex-PRR route goes sooooo close the the airport that DMUs to/from the airport is a no-brainer. Gas is back above $3 and it is NOT going to get cheaper and is running out faster than anticipated (see Nat&#39; Geo-2004-&quot;The End of Cheap Oil). Transit is a quality of life issue and reduces congestion and wait times and improves productivity and connectivity.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1428</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1428</guid>
		<description>Why doesn&#039;t or should I say hasn&#039;t Hamilton County already put any kind of transit service in place? Johnson County did years ago. It directly feeds into the Indygo system.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Now that we are talking about rail transit all the people in Hamilton County think they should get it.&lt;br/&gt;Huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why doesn&#8217;t or should I say hasn&#8217;t Hamilton County already put any kind of transit service in place? Johnson County did years ago. It directly feeds into the Indygo system.</p>
<p>Now that we are talking about rail transit all the people in Hamilton County think they should get it.<br />Huh?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1390</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1390</guid>
		<description>The discussion around the proposed light rail line is really interesting. It seems clear that there are numerous related issues under the surface of the light rail discussion:&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;1. Auto congestion - many people seem to support or not support the light rail project on the basis of what perceived difference it will make to people who continue driving cars. I think proponents really are overselling the potential for congestion reduction in the suburbs. However, I haven&#039;t seen many people talking about the potential for congestion reduction downtown. The system could make a very real impact here. Even if only a couple thousand downtown employees used it daily, think the of difference that would make on downtown congestion and parking. In the longer term with more lines, this could be one of the biggest impacts rail transit could make, reducing auto congestion and car parking downtown.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;2. Pollution - I have seen a lot of debate on whether light rail would have environmental benefits by substituting presumably more efficient transit trips for those in cars. There has been some discussion around diesel vs. electric trains and their relative merits. Pollution should be categorized into local and global impacts. For example, DMUs will emit particulate emissions perhaps at a greater rate than cars, but probably less CO2 per person. Electric trains would have zero local emissions from the vehicle but still are driven by coal-fired powerplants with global warming and regional pollution potential.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;3. Mobility - not a lot of people are talking about the potential for increased mobility. This is another big benefit of light rail transit with an independent right-of-way. Travel times to places by transit are independent of what is happening on the roads, thus helping to maintain or increase mobility for people served by the line. Don&#039;t forget that not everyone can drive. Transit helps improve the mobility for the young, old, poor and disabled, although these benefits are not specific to light rail.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;4. Cost - this debate seems to be framed in terms of how it directly affects the individual. People who perceive they can save gas money by  switching to transit, others believe they will be paying higher taxes for something they won&#039;t use.       There is also a vocal group of people who believe the whole venture is fine as long as it can be funded by private investment. Unfortunately the only number I have seen is the capital cost figure of $160MM. We really need more info on operational costs to determine how good of an investment this is in the long-term.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;5. Land use - many people like light rail because they like transit oriented developments or believe it will support a more vibrant downtown. These could be benefits of light rail but will depend largely on coordinated efforts by a number of agencies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The discussion around the proposed light rail line is really interesting. It seems clear that there are numerous related issues under the surface of the light rail discussion:</p>
<p>1. Auto congestion &#8211; many people seem to support or not support the light rail project on the basis of what perceived difference it will make to people who continue driving cars. I think proponents really are overselling the potential for congestion reduction in the suburbs. However, I haven&#8217;t seen many people talking about the potential for congestion reduction downtown. The system could make a very real impact here. Even if only a couple thousand downtown employees used it daily, think the of difference that would make on downtown congestion and parking. In the longer term with more lines, this could be one of the biggest impacts rail transit could make, reducing auto congestion and car parking downtown.</p>
<p>2. Pollution &#8211; I have seen a lot of debate on whether light rail would have environmental benefits by substituting presumably more efficient transit trips for those in cars. There has been some discussion around diesel vs. electric trains and their relative merits. Pollution should be categorized into local and global impacts. For example, DMUs will emit particulate emissions perhaps at a greater rate than cars, but probably less CO2 per person. Electric trains would have zero local emissions from the vehicle but still are driven by coal-fired powerplants with global warming and regional pollution potential.</p>
<p>3. Mobility &#8211; not a lot of people are talking about the potential for increased mobility. This is another big benefit of light rail transit with an independent right-of-way. Travel times to places by transit are independent of what is happening on the roads, thus helping to maintain or increase mobility for people served by the line. Don&#8217;t forget that not everyone can drive. Transit helps improve the mobility for the young, old, poor and disabled, although these benefits are not specific to light rail.</p>
<p>4. Cost &#8211; this debate seems to be framed in terms of how it directly affects the individual. People who perceive they can save gas money by  switching to transit, others believe they will be paying higher taxes for something they won&#8217;t use.       There is also a vocal group of people who believe the whole venture is fine as long as it can be funded by private investment. Unfortunately the only number I have seen is the capital cost figure of $160MM. We really need more info on operational costs to determine how good of an investment this is in the long-term.</p>
<p>5. Land use &#8211; many people like light rail because they like transit oriented developments or believe it will support a more vibrant downtown. These could be benefits of light rail but will depend largely on coordinated efforts by a number of agencies.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1345</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 06:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1345</guid>
		<description>Buses are only a part of the solution when it comes to mass transit. Rail gets people off roads, reducing congestion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buses are only a part of the solution when it comes to mass transit. Rail gets people off roads, reducing congestion.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1344</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 06:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1344</guid>
		<description>This is ridiculous. The demand that a private company build and operate a rail line is absurd. If that is your expectation for a rail line then how is it that Denver and Salt Lake City, both autocentric, spread out metros, have had fabulous success in building a publicly financed light-rail system with plans to expand service in the future. SLC has a commuter rail line running to Ogden!! &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Obviously, those cities get it when it comes to mass transit, why are Indy;s residents so obtuse and out-of-touch when it comes to the future of public transportation?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If by building a commuter rail line Indy is &quot;rewarding&quot; sprawl, then why no opposition to spending hundreds of millions of dollars improving the road infrastructure in the NE corridor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is ridiculous. The demand that a private company build and operate a rail line is absurd. If that is your expectation for a rail line then how is it that Denver and Salt Lake City, both autocentric, spread out metros, have had fabulous success in building a publicly financed light-rail system with plans to expand service in the future. SLC has a commuter rail line running to Ogden!! </p>
<p>Obviously, those cities get it when it comes to mass transit, why are Indy;s residents so obtuse and out-of-touch when it comes to the future of public transportation?</p>
<p>If by building a commuter rail line Indy is &#8220;rewarding&#8221; sprawl, then why no opposition to spending hundreds of millions of dollars improving the road infrastructure in the NE corridor?</p>
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		<title>By: thundermutt</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1340</link>
		<dc:creator>thundermutt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 03:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1340</guid>
		<description>I think a regional sales tax would also have to pay to improve IndyGo.  If it&#039;s just for providing motorcoaches and trains from the donut counties,  it would need to be a donut tax applied to the region outside Marion County.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a regional sales tax would also have to pay to improve IndyGo.  If it&#8217;s just for providing motorcoaches and trains from the donut counties,  it would need to be a donut tax applied to the region outside Marion County.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1336</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1336</guid>
		<description>Any number of states that have large amounts of out of town workers tax in the location where the job is.  New York City is famous for this.  Louisville, Kentucky also has various &quot;occupational taxes&quot;.  Chicago has a &quot;head tax&quot; on jobs in the Loop.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The problem is that for anyone that isn&#039;t a guaranteed job magnet, taxing people for coming into your jurisdiction to work only encourages the jobs to go elsewhere.  In fact, we&#039;ve already seen the suburbanization of the job base.  Over 50% of the proposed office space construction in the metro area is in Carmel.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I believe a local option sales tax is the most common way to finance transit, at least operations.  A regional tax might be viable if it involved funding to keep buses running to Greenwood, start them running to Hendricks County, etc. with a commitment to future rail line extension.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any number of states that have large amounts of out of town workers tax in the location where the job is.  New York City is famous for this.  Louisville, Kentucky also has various &#8220;occupational taxes&#8221;.  Chicago has a &#8220;head tax&#8221; on jobs in the Loop.</p>
<p>The problem is that for anyone that isn&#8217;t a guaranteed job magnet, taxing people for coming into your jurisdiction to work only encourages the jobs to go elsewhere.  In fact, we&#8217;ve already seen the suburbanization of the job base.  Over 50% of the proposed office space construction in the metro area is in Carmel.</p>
<p>I believe a local option sales tax is the most common way to finance transit, at least operations.  A regional tax might be viable if it involved funding to keep buses running to Greenwood, start them running to Hendricks County, etc. with a commitment to future rail line extension.</p>
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		<title>By: thundermutt</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1334</link>
		<dc:creator>thundermutt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1334</guid>
		<description>The IBJ ran an editorial favoring the NE Corridor train today.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Interesting stat:  53,000 Hamilton County commuters to Marion County.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;My economist mind naturally ran to numbers.  Let&#039;s (conservatively?) assume $50K average wage per job for those 53,000 people.  My calculator says that&#039;s $2.65billion in wages.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I do not know the exact county tax funding formula used by the state.  One used to pay the higher rate (home county vs. work county), but how that was parceled out between the two counties, I don&#039;t know.  I assume the &quot;work county&quot; got something but not all.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Imagine that Marion County got to keep 100% of its 1.65% wage tax on all those wages.  That&#039;s more than $43 million a year in tax revenue.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So my economist minde imagined this, too:  what if our TIF district law in Indiana included sales taxes and wage taxes?  Or what if a separate &quot;Transit TIF&quot; (TTIF) district were created to take advantage of transit-oriented development?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That might be the &quot;innovative funding tool&quot; needed to pay for the trains, streetcars, and upgraded bus system that we need here.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;First policymaker to publicize this idea gets the &quot;Thundermutt Urban Economics Award&quot;.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The IBJ ran an editorial favoring the NE Corridor train today.</p>
<p>Interesting stat:  53,000 Hamilton County commuters to Marion County.</p>
<p>My economist mind naturally ran to numbers.  Let&#8217;s (conservatively?) assume $50K average wage per job for those 53,000 people.  My calculator says that&#8217;s $2.65billion in wages.  </p>
<p>I do not know the exact county tax funding formula used by the state.  One used to pay the higher rate (home county vs. work county), but how that was parceled out between the two counties, I don&#8217;t know.  I assume the &#8220;work county&#8221; got something but not all.</p>
<p>Imagine that Marion County got to keep 100% of its 1.65% wage tax on all those wages.  That&#8217;s more than $43 million a year in tax revenue.</p>
<p>So my economist minde imagined this, too:  what if our TIF district law in Indiana included sales taxes and wage taxes?  Or what if a separate &#8220;Transit TIF&#8221; (TTIF) district were created to take advantage of transit-oriented development?</p>
<p>That might be the &#8220;innovative funding tool&#8221; needed to pay for the trains, streetcars, and upgraded bus system that we need here.</p>
<p>First policymaker to publicize this idea gets the &#8220;Thundermutt Urban Economics Award&#8221;.  <img src='http://www.urbanophile.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1333</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1333</guid>
		<description>corrnd - In traffic engineering, a general assumption is that the busiest portions of the day see about 8-12% of the daily traffic.  Assuming a high-end number (which would mean heavy peaks with lighter traffic during the day &amp; night - like I69), you would expect somewhere between 15-21k cars per hour during the morning &amp; evening rush hours, or 45-60k per 3hr timespan that the train would run.  If the trains in your example were full (I know - big if), then you could conceivably reduce the traffic by 10%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>corrnd &#8211; In traffic engineering, a general assumption is that the busiest portions of the day see about 8-12% of the daily traffic.  Assuming a high-end number (which would mean heavy peaks with lighter traffic during the day &#038; night &#8211; like I69), you would expect somewhere between 15-21k cars per hour during the morning &#038; evening rush hours, or 45-60k per 3hr timespan that the train would run.  If the trains in your example were full (I know &#8211; big if), then you could conceivably reduce the traffic by 10%.</p>
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		<title>By: mordant</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/comment-page-1/#comment-1332</link>
		<dc:creator>mordant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.arenn.com/blog/2008/06/17/commuter-rail-proposed-for-indianapolis/#comment-1332</guid>
		<description>I live in Hamilton County and would love to be able to take a train to and from work.  However, I agree with another comment that the important thing is to do something to get started; Hamilton County can wait our turn as far as I&#039;m concerned if, for example, a line to the airport (or other points) is deemed more important.  I also agree that the lack of stations in minority-dominated areas is ridiculous.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I like the idea of financing (or helping to finance) this thing by creating zones around the stations and devoting any increases in property tax revenue (due to increases in the value of surrounding properties) to the system that helped create the added value.  That strikes me as a much more fair way of financing the project than a regional tax of the sort used to pay for the football stadium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in Hamilton County and would love to be able to take a train to and from work.  However, I agree with another comment that the important thing is to do something to get started; Hamilton County can wait our turn as far as I&#8217;m concerned if, for example, a line to the airport (or other points) is deemed more important.  I also agree that the lack of stations in minority-dominated areas is ridiculous.</p>
<p>I like the idea of financing (or helping to finance) this thing by creating zones around the stations and devoting any increases in property tax revenue (due to increases in the value of surrounding properties) to the system that helped create the added value.  That strikes me as a much more fair way of financing the project than a regional tax of the sort used to pay for the football stadium.</p>
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