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	<title>Comments on: Cincinnati: Water Works and the Commonwealth</title>
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	<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/</link>
	<description>Passionate About Cities</description>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5587</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5587</guid>
		<description>Josh, thanks for the great info on Chicago.  It will be interesting to watch if Daley privatizes water.  If rates say double, but everyone still pays the same, is that legal?  Assuming it is, Daley is still getting the benefit of suburban profits. Might be an interesting source of contention if so. Something to watch for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, thanks for the great info on Chicago.  It will be interesting to watch if Daley privatizes water.  If rates say double, but everyone still pays the same, is that legal?  Assuming it is, Daley is still getting the benefit of suburban profits. Might be an interesting source of contention if so. Something to watch for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Ellis</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5580</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5580</guid>
		<description>Chicago may be a notable exception to this.  The City of Chicago&#039;s Dept. of Water treats and pumps drinking water directly to 48 suburban communities (which in turn pump the same water to an additional 77). All told, actual water consumption is pretty evenly split between the suburbs and the city (a 48/52 split in 2005).  

 

By state law, Chicago is required to charge those 48 communities the same per gallon rate as its own residents (those 48 then have more discretion in what they charge the next town down the pipe).

 

Under current conditions, Chicago would not be able to transfer wealth from suburbs to city (as you speculate might be the case with Cincinnati, which I am not disputing), nor  to use water rates to influence development patterns or concentrate growth in the urban core.  In fact, though it costs more money (and uses more energy, and results in greater infrastructure costs) to pump water to even immediately neighboring suburbs than to homes in Chicago, the only way the City of Chicago can generate revenue to account for those suburban costs is to raise the water rates for everyone, including city residents... which is what is does.  Every Chicago resident is footing some portion of the bill for suburban water use.

 

Last week a few rumors circulated that Chicago might be looking to privatize its water system.  That is a rich topic of discussion in itself, but one for a later day.  The germane issue here is that in Illinois, private utilities are required to charge the full cost of water service... so in theory any private firm would have to increase the per gallon at which it sold water to the suburbs... in which case the Chicago region might move into the same discussion as Cincinnati.  HOWEVER, I don&#039;t know if that full cost pricing law would trump the same rate for city and suburb law, or vice versa. 

 

Food for thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chicago may be a notable exception to this.  The City of Chicago&#8217;s Dept. of Water treats and pumps drinking water directly to 48 suburban communities (which in turn pump the same water to an additional 77). All told, actual water consumption is pretty evenly split between the suburbs and the city (a 48/52 split in 2005).  </p>
<p>By state law, Chicago is required to charge those 48 communities the same per gallon rate as its own residents (those 48 then have more discretion in what they charge the next town down the pipe).</p>
<p>Under current conditions, Chicago would not be able to transfer wealth from suburbs to city (as you speculate might be the case with Cincinnati, which I am not disputing), nor  to use water rates to influence development patterns or concentrate growth in the urban core.  In fact, though it costs more money (and uses more energy, and results in greater infrastructure costs) to pump water to even immediately neighboring suburbs than to homes in Chicago, the only way the City of Chicago can generate revenue to account for those suburban costs is to raise the water rates for everyone, including city residents&#8230; which is what is does.  Every Chicago resident is footing some portion of the bill for suburban water use.</p>
<p>Last week a few rumors circulated that Chicago might be looking to privatize its water system.  That is a rich topic of discussion in itself, but one for a later day.  The germane issue here is that in Illinois, private utilities are required to charge the full cost of water service&#8230; so in theory any private firm would have to increase the per gallon at which it sold water to the suburbs&#8230; in which case the Chicago region might move into the same discussion as Cincinnati.  HOWEVER, I don&#8217;t know if that full cost pricing law would trump the same rate for city and suburb law, or vice versa. </p>
<p>Food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5564</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 03:34:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5564</guid>
		<description>Ed, I have no idea what you are talking about.  Indianapolis does have a consolidated city-county government, but it has many suburbs.  Related to the water utility, I suggest you look at the map here.

http://www.indianapoliswater.com/serviceterritory.html

As you can see, the bulk of the suburbs get their water from IWC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed, I have no idea what you are talking about.  Indianapolis does have a consolidated city-county government, but it has many suburbs.  Related to the water utility, I suggest you look at the map here.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.indianapoliswater.com/serviceterritory.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.indianapoliswater.com/serviceterritory.html</a></p>
<p>As you can see, the bulk of the suburbs get their water from IWC.</p>
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		<title>By: west town ed</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5563</link>
		<dc:creator>west town ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 03:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5563</guid>
		<description>Just a brief note: check a map, Indianapolis has no suburbs, the city and the county are the same.  Now imagine if Chicago and Cook County (or Cleveland/Cuyahoga county) were the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a brief note: check a map, Indianapolis has no suburbs, the city and the county are the same.  Now imagine if Chicago and Cook County (or Cleveland/Cuyahoga county) were the same.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5562</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5562</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments, everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments, everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5560</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5560</guid>
		<description>John.  I see your point regarding &quot;smarter growth&quot; though I would be cautious of creating a worsening urban v. suburban divide based on restricting water.  Better land usage restrictions from the state level seems a better option to encourage less sprawl in SW Ohio.  Having the central city sell and control resources seems like one way to maintain  dominance of a region, without creating the &quot;Springfield&quot; vs. &quot;NEW Springfield&quot; senario (Simpson&#039;s reference.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John.  I see your point regarding &#8220;smarter growth&#8221; though I would be cautious of creating a worsening urban v. suburban divide based on restricting water.  Better land usage restrictions from the state level seems a better option to encourage less sprawl in SW Ohio.  Having the central city sell and control resources seems like one way to maintain  dominance of a region, without creating the &#8220;Springfield&#8221; vs. &#8220;NEW Springfield&#8221; senario (Simpson&#8217;s reference.)</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5554</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5554</guid>
		<description>&quot;Also, by law, it cannot build facilities outside the city of Cincinnati that are not for the benefit of people in the city. The city believes this &lt;strong&gt;constrains its operations and ability to grow&lt;/strong&gt;, however, also notes that water consumption is declining due to declines in industrial usage, so it doesn’t sound like expansion is necessary in any case.&quot;

I&#039;m not sure the current limited ability to grow is actually a bad thing.  If the water company grows, that means it is probably serving suburban/exurban areas far from the central city, thus undercutting the city&#039;s ability to attract new redevelopment in the core instead of greenfield development on the edges.  Restricting water access would seem to be a good way to require smarter growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Also, by law, it cannot build facilities outside the city of Cincinnati that are not for the benefit of people in the city. The city believes this <strong>constrains its operations and ability to grow</strong>, however, also notes that water consumption is declining due to declines in industrial usage, so it doesn’t sound like expansion is necessary in any case.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure the current limited ability to grow is actually a bad thing.  If the water company grows, that means it is probably serving suburban/exurban areas far from the central city, thus undercutting the city&#8217;s ability to attract new redevelopment in the core instead of greenfield development on the edges.  Restricting water access would seem to be a good way to require smarter growth.</p>
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		<title>By: Interested Conservative</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5553</link>
		<dc:creator>Interested Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5553</guid>
		<description>A few comments about the observation comparing Cincinnati with Indianapolis and Columbus. First, they are state capitols as well as cities of regional importance. Columbus, particularly, owes much of its growth to this - historically it had negligible manufacturing, transport or trade significance within Ohio.

Second, in addition to the water works, Cincinnati has some other curious assets. It built and owns a railroad, for example, so has a longstanding dividend stream from an otherwise typical private sector function. There has been discussion of &quot;privatizing&quot; or selling it as well, though it is less obviously immediate to the existing citizenry.

Finally, unlike many of the other depopulating cities of the midwest, Cincinnati is largely losing population to its own suburbs/exurbs. The net population of the tri-state region hasn&#039;t dramatically shifted. This differs from the smaller cases (i.e. a huge chunk of Youngstown [25%, 50%, ?] basically moved to Columbus, as well as Detroit (moved to Texas, Florida, El Paso/Juarez?).

Cincinnati is much more akin to Milwaukee or St. Louis - there&#039;s still a very viable economy there, it&#039;s just shifting around the economic incentives rather than dealing with more permanent serious dislocations.

Interesting analysis, all told.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few comments about the observation comparing Cincinnati with Indianapolis and Columbus. First, they are state capitols as well as cities of regional importance. Columbus, particularly, owes much of its growth to this &#8211; historically it had negligible manufacturing, transport or trade significance within Ohio.</p>
<p>Second, in addition to the water works, Cincinnati has some other curious assets. It built and owns a railroad, for example, so has a longstanding dividend stream from an otherwise typical private sector function. There has been discussion of &#8220;privatizing&#8221; or selling it as well, though it is less obviously immediate to the existing citizenry.</p>
<p>Finally, unlike many of the other depopulating cities of the midwest, Cincinnati is largely losing population to its own suburbs/exurbs. The net population of the tri-state region hasn&#8217;t dramatically shifted. This differs from the smaller cases (i.e. a huge chunk of Youngstown [25%, 50%, ?] basically moved to Columbus, as well as Detroit (moved to Texas, Florida, El Paso/Juarez?).</p>
<p>Cincinnati is much more akin to Milwaukee or St. Louis &#8211; there&#8217;s still a very viable economy there, it&#8217;s just shifting around the economic incentives rather than dealing with more permanent serious dislocations.</p>
<p>Interesting analysis, all told.</p>
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		<title>By: david vartanoff</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5552</link>
		<dc:creator>david vartanoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 05:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5552</guid>
		<description>You wrote &quot;Clearly, the suburbs have a vested interest in a healthy core city. When the central city implodes... the entire region suffers.&quot;  Wish it were so. The growth of the Edge Cities, most of which are deliberately further out was precisely secession from and abandonment of the urban cores in favor of auto access only areas. It is these areas which have pigged most of the infrastructure funds over the last several decades leaving the central cities to rot without adequate money to maintain services.  The throw away society applied to people and places.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You wrote &#8220;Clearly, the suburbs have a vested interest in a healthy core city. When the central city implodes&#8230; the entire region suffers.&#8221;  Wish it were so. The growth of the Edge Cities, most of which are deliberately further out was precisely secession from and abandonment of the urban cores in favor of auto access only areas. It is these areas which have pigged most of the infrastructure funds over the last several decades leaving the central cities to rot without adequate money to maintain services.  The throw away society applied to people and places.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Miller, COAST</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/01/cincinnati-water-works-and-the-commonwealth/comment-page-1/#comment-5550</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Miller, COAST</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 23:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=976#comment-5550</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;Whether or not the conversion and rate increase is a good thing is one I will leave to the residents of Cincinnati to decide. It is like any other tax or fee increase. It depends on community values and the bets the community wants to take about the future. I am not taking any position on the ballot issue regarding this matter.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

The purpose of the ballot (Issue 8) is to give Cincinnatians a voice on the matter. Presently, the City Manager, Mayor &amp; Council can decide the issue without voter input.

You can say, and many have, that voters are too stupid to make this call; that&#039;s why we elect representatives. The problem is our reps are more concerned with saving their own political skins than looking out for the long-term best interest of the city.

There&#039;s every indication they will make this decision, not based on the lofty criteria you describe, but to cover their current budget hole. Every city service has a constituency; and every cut will alienate some group. Selling the water works allows them to avoid tough choices in this depression by making money seemingly appear out of thin air. And that&#039;s a lousy reason to do it.

Once it&#039;s gone, it&#039;s gone for good. Politicians hold office for 2 or 4 years, perhaps 2 or 3 terms, and they&#039;re off to another one. This is a permanent decision, and it deserves to be made by the permanent stakeholders. Citizens will be stuck with the bills and the results forever. It&#039;s only proper that voters should make the final call.

Issue 8 is a City charter amendment that requires voter approval before water works assets can be transferred. Voting YES ON ISSUE 8 will allow citizens&#039; voices to be heard. Vote YES ON ISSUE 8.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>Whether or not the conversion and rate increase is a good thing is one I will leave to the residents of Cincinnati to decide. It is like any other tax or fee increase. It depends on community values and the bets the community wants to take about the future. I am not taking any position on the ballot issue regarding this matter.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>The purpose of the ballot (Issue <img src='http://www.urbanophile.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' /> is to give Cincinnatians a voice on the matter. Presently, the City Manager, Mayor &amp; Council can decide the issue without voter input.</p>
<p>You can say, and many have, that voters are too stupid to make this call; that&#8217;s why we elect representatives. The problem is our reps are more concerned with saving their own political skins than looking out for the long-term best interest of the city.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s every indication they will make this decision, not based on the lofty criteria you describe, but to cover their current budget hole. Every city service has a constituency; and every cut will alienate some group. Selling the water works allows them to avoid tough choices in this depression by making money seemingly appear out of thin air. And that&#8217;s a lousy reason to do it.</p>
<p>Once it&#8217;s gone, it&#8217;s gone for good. Politicians hold office for 2 or 4 years, perhaps 2 or 3 terms, and they&#8217;re off to another one. This is a permanent decision, and it deserves to be made by the permanent stakeholders. Citizens will be stuck with the bills and the results forever. It&#8217;s only proper that voters should make the final call.</p>
<p>Issue 8 is a City charter amendment that requires voter approval before water works assets can be transferred. Voting YES ON ISSUE 8 will allow citizens&#8217; voices to be heard. Vote YES ON ISSUE 8.</p>
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