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	<title>Comments on: Indy: Parallel Societies</title>
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	<description>Passionate About Cities</description>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5788</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5788</guid>
		<description>John Doe, it&#039;s not just that people survive more shootings. There are fewer shootings: crime is down across the board, in all categories.

Reading about crime on local newscasts tells you what the most lurid crimes are, not what the most likely ones are. When a black person shoots a white person, it&#039;s news. When a black person shoots another black person, or when a white person shoots a white person, both of which are much more likely to happen, it&#039;s not news.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Doe, it&#8217;s not just that people survive more shootings. There are fewer shootings: crime is down across the board, in all categories.</p>
<p>Reading about crime on local newscasts tells you what the most lurid crimes are, not what the most likely ones are. When a black person shoots a white person, it&#8217;s news. When a black person shoots another black person, or when a white person shoots a white person, both of which are much more likely to happen, it&#8217;s not news.</p>
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		<title>By: John Doe</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5786</link>
		<dc:creator>John Doe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5786</guid>
		<description>&quot;...I never felt unsafe enough to consider getting a gun permit. I’m revisiting that now. Maybe out of panic, but maybe out of realism too: “the wrong place at the wrong time” for Gabe was within sight of my front porch.&quot;

Every Indiana resident needs to get their gun permit, especially if you plan on buying a handgun.  Technically speaking, people who are 18 years and older, need a gun permit to even shoot a handgun at a range.  So even if you have a handgun for home defense only, never plan on carrying it in your vehicle or person, you need the permit so you can go and shoot a box of ammo ever few months to keep your skills up.  Plus, you need the permit so you have the _option_ of carrying a handgun.  Things could go back at anytime.  Flash mobs/riots can happen within seconds.  Having a gun and a permit to carry it is just being prepared.

As far as crime, I don&#039;t believe any survey.  I believe police stats, and I know for a fact they don&#039;t tell the truth of the matter.  Some folks just don&#039;t report the crime, for whatever reason(s).  I know that property crime is high.  Maybe officially it is low, or getting low.  People say look at homicide rates, but what they don&#039;t tell you is to look at people shot rates.  The shooting of Gabe is sad, very sad, but the statistic he represents is one that is never discussed.  Say you have 100 homicides one year and 100 people shot, the next year you only have 50 homicides, but 350 people were shot but lived.  The focus is always on the homicide, but for the second year, physics was on the side of the victims.  Had those bullets been inches in either direction, we could have seen homicides hit 200, with 200 people shot but lived.

If you live near a Section 8 housing unit or rental, use caution.  Be on alert always.  Blissninnie Pollyanna&#039;s will yell &quot;You can&#039;t go through life in constant fear!!&quot;  Well, you can&#039;t go through life dead either.  Don&#039;t trust the government from crime stats.  Your best indicator is the local news.  For something to do outside of playing World of Warcraft, take some time to start a crime journal.  Make it a point to watch as much daily, local newscasts as you can.  Check all the local websites once in the morning, and once at night.  Also try to make it a point to check Indy 911 and see what crimes/incidents are listed at every given hour.  Write that information down, then draw your own conclusions about crime.

Again, no reason for an Indiana resident not to have their handgun carry permit.  You can get a lifetime permit for $120 or $140.00.  There is also no reason that an adult(s) shouldn&#039;t have at least one firearm in the home for defense and self-protection.  Be it a shotgun, rifle, or handgun, this is what it will take to stop some very evil, ruthless people out there.  Just practice, have a plan, take steps to not be a victim so hopefully you never have to use the gun.  If you have kids, keep the gun out of their reach.  Also practice.  Don&#039;t buy a gun, shoot it a few times, and then lock it up for the next decade.  Go to the range at least three to four times a year so that you are always comfortable with the machine.  For newbie gun owners, please, do your best to find a friend, or a &quot;gun person,&quot; that is willing to teach you how to shoot, the mindset to be in, etc..  I am currently teaching a new shooter who has decided that they want a gun in the home just in case.  At our first range session, another female was there and got a gun because someone broke into her home.  Her blissninnie dream land of safety had been shattered, and it was clear to me that reality had smacked another person awake to the world around them.  Most of all, be careful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;I never felt unsafe enough to consider getting a gun permit. I’m revisiting that now. Maybe out of panic, but maybe out of realism too: “the wrong place at the wrong time” for Gabe was within sight of my front porch.&#8221;</p>
<p>Every Indiana resident needs to get their gun permit, especially if you plan on buying a handgun.  Technically speaking, people who are 18 years and older, need a gun permit to even shoot a handgun at a range.  So even if you have a handgun for home defense only, never plan on carrying it in your vehicle or person, you need the permit so you can go and shoot a box of ammo ever few months to keep your skills up.  Plus, you need the permit so you have the _option_ of carrying a handgun.  Things could go back at anytime.  Flash mobs/riots can happen within seconds.  Having a gun and a permit to carry it is just being prepared.</p>
<p>As far as crime, I don&#8217;t believe any survey.  I believe police stats, and I know for a fact they don&#8217;t tell the truth of the matter.  Some folks just don&#8217;t report the crime, for whatever reason(s).  I know that property crime is high.  Maybe officially it is low, or getting low.  People say look at homicide rates, but what they don&#8217;t tell you is to look at people shot rates.  The shooting of Gabe is sad, very sad, but the statistic he represents is one that is never discussed.  Say you have 100 homicides one year and 100 people shot, the next year you only have 50 homicides, but 350 people were shot but lived.  The focus is always on the homicide, but for the second year, physics was on the side of the victims.  Had those bullets been inches in either direction, we could have seen homicides hit 200, with 200 people shot but lived.</p>
<p>If you live near a Section 8 housing unit or rental, use caution.  Be on alert always.  Blissninnie Pollyanna&#8217;s will yell &#8220;You can&#8217;t go through life in constant fear!!&#8221;  Well, you can&#8217;t go through life dead either.  Don&#8217;t trust the government from crime stats.  Your best indicator is the local news.  For something to do outside of playing World of Warcraft, take some time to start a crime journal.  Make it a point to watch as much daily, local newscasts as you can.  Check all the local websites once in the morning, and once at night.  Also try to make it a point to check Indy 911 and see what crimes/incidents are listed at every given hour.  Write that information down, then draw your own conclusions about crime.</p>
<p>Again, no reason for an Indiana resident not to have their handgun carry permit.  You can get a lifetime permit for $120 or $140.00.  There is also no reason that an adult(s) shouldn&#8217;t have at least one firearm in the home for defense and self-protection.  Be it a shotgun, rifle, or handgun, this is what it will take to stop some very evil, ruthless people out there.  Just practice, have a plan, take steps to not be a victim so hopefully you never have to use the gun.  If you have kids, keep the gun out of their reach.  Also practice.  Don&#8217;t buy a gun, shoot it a few times, and then lock it up for the next decade.  Go to the range at least three to four times a year so that you are always comfortable with the machine.  For newbie gun owners, please, do your best to find a friend, or a &#8220;gun person,&#8221; that is willing to teach you how to shoot, the mindset to be in, etc..  I am currently teaching a new shooter who has decided that they want a gun in the home just in case.  At our first range session, another female was there and got a gun because someone broke into her home.  Her blissninnie dream land of safety had been shattered, and it was clear to me that reality had smacked another person awake to the world around them.  Most of all, be careful.</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5777</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5777</guid>
		<description>Most people do not move to cities to create relationships with people different from them.

They leave their hometowns for a better job, or to be around people _more_ like themselves (thinking of hipsters, artists, trixies, gays whatever) of course they will run into people who are different from them, they&#039;ll get funny stories out of it, but not a new social circle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most people do not move to cities to create relationships with people different from them.</p>
<p>They leave their hometowns for a better job, or to be around people _more_ like themselves (thinking of hipsters, artists, trixies, gays whatever) of course they will run into people who are different from them, they&#8217;ll get funny stories out of it, but not a new social circle.</p>
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		<title>By: west town ed</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5769</link>
		<dc:creator>west town ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5769</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know if I-70 is the real Mason-Dixon line but I do remember that when I was at Bowling Green in the early 60s I learned that there was major linguistic dividing line that ran through Ohio.  At that time is was known as the (US) Route 40 divide. That highway was then the major east-west axis of both Indianapolis and Columbus.  I grew up in northern Ohio and then spent six years in Dayton (only a short distance south of the line) and learned that what I had been taught was true. 

I have lived in Chicago for more than 40 years -- most of it in Lincoln Park -- and would love to write an intelligent discourse on the (super?) gentrification of that area but that must wait for another day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if I-70 is the real Mason-Dixon line but I do remember that when I was at Bowling Green in the early 60s I learned that there was major linguistic dividing line that ran through Ohio.  At that time is was known as the (US) Route 40 divide. That highway was then the major east-west axis of both Indianapolis and Columbus.  I grew up in northern Ohio and then spent six years in Dayton (only a short distance south of the line) and learned that what I had been taught was true. </p>
<p>I have lived in Chicago for more than 40 years &#8212; most of it in Lincoln Park &#8212; and would love to write an intelligent discourse on the (super?) gentrification of that area but that must wait for another day.</p>
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		<title>By: JG</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5764</link>
		<dc:creator>JG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5764</guid>
		<description>CDC GUY:  Nice point. Murder rates tend be be cited alone when one discusses city saftey.  It is such an incomplete and foolish picture without discussing victim demographics, relation to assailent, and even more so discussing attempted murders, robberies, rapes, beatings, and major theats.  Still, it appears crimes are down since the 90&#039;s across the board in cities - hopefully the trend will continue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CDC GUY:  Nice point. Murder rates tend be be cited alone when one discusses city saftey.  It is such an incomplete and foolish picture without discussing victim demographics, relation to assailent, and even more so discussing attempted murders, robberies, rapes, beatings, and major theats.  Still, it appears crimes are down since the 90&#8217;s across the board in cities &#8211; hopefully the trend will continue.</p>
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		<title>By: cdc guy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5757</link>
		<dc:creator>cdc guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5757</guid>
		<description>Alon, the murder-rate statistics don&#039;t get to randomness, associations, or real probability of a specific person being victimized by violent crime.  They&#039;re really too gross a measurement for discerning people to use. 

Several years ago, The Indianapolis Star published a detailed list, chart, and map of all homicides for our worst year ever.  In reading the descriptions, looking at the locations, and understanding the relationships involved, I felt much less threatened by the murder rate spike: regardless of the murder rate, very few were actually &quot;stranger crime&quot; and few involved middle-aged caucasian men.  

It may be that deeper analysis would show that Atlanta and Dallas really are relatively safe overall EXCEPT for those who are male, black or hispanic, unemployed or working in the underground economy, between 15-24, and living in a poor, blighted neighborhood...or living with someone who is.  

To the extent that violent crime is widely understood to be concentrated in a particular demographic segment and area of town, then its threat will be widely discounted by those outside the demographic and neighborhood.

But (to wrap back to Gabe Jordan) when a decent man who feels safe is shot walking his dog in a &quot;good&quot; neighborhood, regardless of whether it&#039;s a statistical anomaly, the &quot;threat discount&quot; evaporates in the hot reality of police tape, news stories, and camera crews.  

Some folks will flee the hot reality because they can no longer discount the threat of a violent occurrence, no matter how statistically small its probability is for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alon, the murder-rate statistics don&#8217;t get to randomness, associations, or real probability of a specific person being victimized by violent crime.  They&#8217;re really too gross a measurement for discerning people to use. </p>
<p>Several years ago, The Indianapolis Star published a detailed list, chart, and map of all homicides for our worst year ever.  In reading the descriptions, looking at the locations, and understanding the relationships involved, I felt much less threatened by the murder rate spike: regardless of the murder rate, very few were actually &#8220;stranger crime&#8221; and few involved middle-aged caucasian men.  </p>
<p>It may be that deeper analysis would show that Atlanta and Dallas really are relatively safe overall EXCEPT for those who are male, black or hispanic, unemployed or working in the underground economy, between 15-24, and living in a poor, blighted neighborhood&#8230;or living with someone who is.  </p>
<p>To the extent that violent crime is widely understood to be concentrated in a particular demographic segment and area of town, then its threat will be widely discounted by those outside the demographic and neighborhood.</p>
<p>But (to wrap back to Gabe Jordan) when a decent man who feels safe is shot walking his dog in a &#8220;good&#8221; neighborhood, regardless of whether it&#8217;s a statistical anomaly, the &#8220;threat discount&#8221; evaporates in the hot reality of police tape, news stories, and camera crews.  </p>
<p>Some folks will flee the hot reality because they can no longer discount the threat of a violent occurrence, no matter how statistically small its probability is for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5755</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5755</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t say anything about crime and investment - all I&#039;m arguing is that nationally, crime is down from 10 years ago.

But while we&#039;re at it: Yonkers has a murder rate of 5, and a bad school district. It has a top-ranked magnet school, but all the other schools suck. Santa Ana has a murder rate of 7, and an even worse school district, with no good magnet school. Conversely, Houston, whose murder rate is 16, has a good school system by inner city standards.

And yes, when it comes to perception, statistics are absolutely only part of the story. Houston and Dallas are quite unsafe and Atlanta even more unsafe, but they&#039;re not perceived as such, unlike Washington or Los Angeles or even New York. Their social problems are less familiar, their gangs haven&#039;t had movies made about them, and their governments either come off as less dysfunctional or haven&#039;t had their problems broadcast nationally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t say anything about crime and investment &#8211; all I&#8217;m arguing is that nationally, crime is down from 10 years ago.</p>
<p>But while we&#8217;re at it: Yonkers has a murder rate of 5, and a bad school district. It has a top-ranked magnet school, but all the other schools suck. Santa Ana has a murder rate of 7, and an even worse school district, with no good magnet school. Conversely, Houston, whose murder rate is 16, has a good school system by inner city standards.</p>
<p>And yes, when it comes to perception, statistics are absolutely only part of the story. Houston and Dallas are quite unsafe and Atlanta even more unsafe, but they&#8217;re not perceived as such, unlike Washington or Los Angeles or even New York. Their social problems are less familiar, their gangs haven&#8217;t had movies made about them, and their governments either come off as less dysfunctional or haven&#8217;t had their problems broadcast nationally.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete from Baltimore</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5752</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete from Baltimore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5752</guid>
		<description>MR Renn
Thank you for providing the link .  Ta-Nehisi Coates at the Atlantic Monthly blog also discusses it under the title   &quot;Whats really hood&quot;.

I agree with you that there are many factors.But its hard to seperate them from each other.Crime and bad schools are interlinked for instance.I have never heard of a low performing urban school that didnt have a crime problem  .

  i also have to also point out that Baltimore has only the SECOND worse homicide rate   . The #1 position belongs to Detroit .There are many reasons why companies dont invest there.And many reasons why they should [skilled workers ,cheap land,ect]But in the end i think that its their reputation as an urban hell hole.I mean no offence to anyone from Detroit.My own town has the same reputation.And if it was a terrible place to live i wouldnt be living here.

I love my city and i love walking through it.i walked 16 miles around it Monday[its been raining ever since ,sadly]But i do feel that ist nececary to realise our problems and to face them and to try to come up with solutions to them</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MR Renn<br />
Thank you for providing the link .  Ta-Nehisi Coates at the Atlantic Monthly blog also discusses it under the title   &#8220;Whats really hood&#8221;.</p>
<p>I agree with you that there are many factors.But its hard to seperate them from each other.Crime and bad schools are interlinked for instance.I have never heard of a low performing urban school that didnt have a crime problem  .</p>
<p>  i also have to also point out that Baltimore has only the SECOND worse homicide rate   . The #1 position belongs to Detroit .There are many reasons why companies dont invest there.And many reasons why they should [skilled workers ,cheap land,ect]But in the end i think that its their reputation as an urban hell hole.I mean no offence to anyone from Detroit.My own town has the same reputation.And if it was a terrible place to live i wouldnt be living here.</p>
<p>I love my city and i love walking through it.i walked 16 miles around it Monday[its been raining ever since ,sadly]But i do feel that ist nececary to realise our problems and to face them and to try to come up with solutions to them</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5750</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5750</guid>
		<description>Anne, artists may not make a lot of money, but artists and arts institutions are a known vector of gentrification. 

George, thanks for the Columbus perspective. I would have expected Columbus to have similar neighborhoods, perhaps even more of them.  I-70 is the main route out of West Virginia to Indy, and Columbus is even closer. I just don&#039;t know the city&#039;s neighborhoods well enough to have commented, so I&#039;m glad you do and did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anne, artists may not make a lot of money, but artists and arts institutions are a known vector of gentrification. </p>
<p>George, thanks for the Columbus perspective. I would have expected Columbus to have similar neighborhoods, perhaps even more of them.  I-70 is the main route out of West Virginia to Indy, and Columbus is even closer. I just don&#8217;t know the city&#8217;s neighborhoods well enough to have commented, so I&#8217;m glad you do and did.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/11/indy-parallel-societies/comment-page-1/#comment-5749</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1051#comment-5749</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments everyone.

Here is the Yglesias thread:

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/11/the-real-cost-of-crime.php

With crime, statistics are only part of the story. Crime is a visceral issue. Do people feel safe in their neighborhoods? Does it seem things are getting better or worse?  Is the city government perceived as effective of feckless?  Are other conditions such as business investment and infrastructure improving so that the neighborhood at least looks like it is getting better? Or are things going the other way.  How many crimes like this occur, when generally safe areas have a truly innocent person get horribly shot?  It all factors in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments everyone.</p>
<p>Here is the Yglesias thread:</p>
<p><a href="http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/11/the-real-cost-of-crime.php" rel="nofollow">http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/11/the-real-cost-of-crime.php</a></p>
<p>With crime, statistics are only part of the story. Crime is a visceral issue. Do people feel safe in their neighborhoods? Does it seem things are getting better or worse?  Is the city government perceived as effective of feckless?  Are other conditions such as business investment and infrastructure improving so that the neighborhood at least looks like it is getting better? Or are things going the other way.  How many crimes like this occur, when generally safe areas have a truly innocent person get horribly shot?  It all factors in.</p>
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