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	<title>Comments on: Thanksgiving Open Thread: Your Civic Ambition</title>
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	<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/</link>
	<description>Passionate About Cities</description>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6118</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6118</guid>
		<description>Chuck, if you build the bullet train, you might as well make sure the central station is the existing downtown Amtrak station. Most of the advantage of HSR over air is that it can get you closer to downtown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chuck, if you build the bullet train, you might as well make sure the central station is the existing downtown Amtrak station. Most of the advantage of HSR over air is that it can get you closer to downtown.</p>
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		<title>By: chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6113</link>
		<dc:creator>chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6113</guid>
		<description>For Indy: Build a 220mph bullet train to Chicago (use the old airport terminal as central station?). 

Run a light rail line from the airport to Irvington via Washington St. and from Broad Ripple to Beech Grove (through downtown and Fountain Square). Use Pan Am Plaza for the downtown terminal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Indy: Build a 220mph bullet train to Chicago (use the old airport terminal as central station?). </p>
<p>Run a light rail line from the airport to Irvington via Washington St. and from Broad Ripple to Beech Grove (through downtown and Fountain Square). Use Pan Am Plaza for the downtown terminal.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6066</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6066</guid>
		<description>JC, there is something to that.  I&#039;d argue that Carmel has more or less taken that approach.  In fact, Jim Brainard likes to argue that he&#039;s only adopting proven approaches from elsewhere. I believe the idea is that he wants people to feel confident in the new direction, and not believe it is new or a gamble. But they&#039;ve taken things like roundabouts and deployed them at a scale far greater than where most other places have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JC, there is something to that.  I&#8217;d argue that Carmel has more or less taken that approach.  In fact, Jim Brainard likes to argue that he&#8217;s only adopting proven approaches from elsewhere. I believe the idea is that he wants people to feel confident in the new direction, and not believe it is new or a gamble. But they&#8217;ve taken things like roundabouts and deployed them at a scale far greater than where most other places have.</p>
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		<title>By: JC</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6053</link>
		<dc:creator>JC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6053</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a lot to like in being execution driven in that you don&#039;t incur the invention/startup costs of the idea. 

You may rarely be the first to the part, but if you can apply an innovation elsewhere with tremendous speed and effectiveness while doing so at a lower cost, that can be a pretty sustainable niche ... so long as you organize your infrastructure and leadership to do just that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a lot to like in being execution driven in that you don&#8217;t incur the invention/startup costs of the idea. </p>
<p>You may rarely be the first to the part, but if you can apply an innovation elsewhere with tremendous speed and effectiveness while doing so at a lower cost, that can be a pretty sustainable niche &#8230; so long as you organize your infrastructure and leadership to do just that.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6025</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6025</guid>
		<description>Dwight Gibson in Detroit sent me this contribution by email:

In Detroit there will be a return of imagination for creation and exploring as there was with the pioneers of old in this region in Fur, Timber and Engineering.   In the work place there is dignity for the people with work that encourages and develops the craftsman.  This would be a change from the 20th century where both the white and blue collar worker lost their dignity in the workplace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dwight Gibson in Detroit sent me this contribution by email:</p>
<p>In Detroit there will be a return of imagination for creation and exploring as there was with the pioneers of old in this region in Fur, Timber and Engineering.   In the work place there is dignity for the people with work that encourages and develops the craftsman.  This would be a change from the 20th century where both the white and blue collar worker lost their dignity in the workplace.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6015</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6015</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the all the comments.

Jon, I think you are making a great point re:Chicago.  Back in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Chicago was the place you came to see what the future of the city looked like. It was the ultimate industrial colossus. It was also the source of a lot of urban innovation.

That is certainly not the case today. Chicago doesn&#039;t dominate any industry in the way it did the industrial age. Instead, it is very diversified. That has its advantages too, of course. Also, Chicago is not really an urban innovator. Rather, it has adopted the strategy of the &quot;fast follower&quot; where it takes something like bike lanes and deploys them at scale faster than a lot of other cities. It&#039;s more execution driven.

Whether this is enough to sustain the city in the future, time will tell.  I think it is a debate that clearly needs to happen, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the all the comments.</p>
<p>Jon, I think you are making a great point re:Chicago.  Back in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Chicago was the place you came to see what the future of the city looked like. It was the ultimate industrial colossus. It was also the source of a lot of urban innovation.</p>
<p>That is certainly not the case today. Chicago doesn&#8217;t dominate any industry in the way it did the industrial age. Instead, it is very diversified. That has its advantages too, of course. Also, Chicago is not really an urban innovator. Rather, it has adopted the strategy of the &#8220;fast follower&#8221; where it takes something like bike lanes and deploys them at scale faster than a lot of other cities. It&#8217;s more execution driven.</p>
<p>Whether this is enough to sustain the city in the future, time will tell.  I think it is a debate that clearly needs to happen, however.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6011</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6011</guid>
		<description>As a followup to my earlier post - While developing world-class public transit in Chicago is a tactical &quot;civic ambition,&quot; I&#039;d also like to make a strategic comment. This follows a comment I made on Aaron&#039;s &quot;Migration: Geographies in Conflict&quot;. In short, my strategic civic ambition for Chicago is that the city should cement some aspect of its
historic identity into a perpetual &quot;calling card.&quot; As discussed in that post, Silicon Valley is probably the first place a person considers when thinking &quot;Where should I go to do a high-tech startup?&quot; Paris is the first place a person considers when thinking &quot;Where should I go to push the boundaries of style in fashion, food, or the arts?&quot; People keep pouring into these two places year after year to &quot;pursue the dream&quot; associated with each, despite many practical obstacles (cost, etc.).

What idea attracts like-minded people to Chicago from all over the world, year after year? As a lifelong Chicagoan, I wonder whether outsiders perceive anything of this sort? I always refer to Chicago as a place of great balance - the place to go in order to make it big in the world while still maintaining a high quality of life. But I also see
the &quot;global city&quot; competition on the horizon, and I wonder if this is enough to sustain us in competition with a rising Mumbai, Shanghai,etc. My hunch is that Paris and Silicon Valley will continue to attract people, due to the aforementioned mythology each embodies. 

When I consider Chicago&#039;s potential mythologies, one thing sticks out above all else - &quot;A Great Urban Experiment.&quot; Above all else, this seems like a reason people from anywhere might flock to Chicago. This idea has historical roots. Chicago was once a raw American frontier city where ambitious people came to perfect the ideal modern city. That spirit continues in the collective DNA. Long term, the city&#039;s roots as a great business hub may be secondary to attracting the world&#039;s greatest architects, urban planners, education experts, energy usage experts, transportation experts, etc. etc. In my opinion, it is most important for key people to think &quot;Chicago&quot; when they think &quot;where should I go to help build the world&#039;s highest quality 21st century city?&quot; If that spirit continues, then Chicago will continue as a great transportation and global business hub.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a followup to my earlier post &#8211; While developing world-class public transit in Chicago is a tactical &#8220;civic ambition,&#8221; I&#8217;d also like to make a strategic comment. This follows a comment I made on Aaron&#8217;s &#8220;Migration: Geographies in Conflict&#8221;. In short, my strategic civic ambition for Chicago is that the city should cement some aspect of its<br />
historic identity into a perpetual &#8220;calling card.&#8221; As discussed in that post, Silicon Valley is probably the first place a person considers when thinking &#8220;Where should I go to do a high-tech startup?&#8221; Paris is the first place a person considers when thinking &#8220;Where should I go to push the boundaries of style in fashion, food, or the arts?&#8221; People keep pouring into these two places year after year to &#8220;pursue the dream&#8221; associated with each, despite many practical obstacles (cost, etc.).</p>
<p>What idea attracts like-minded people to Chicago from all over the world, year after year? As a lifelong Chicagoan, I wonder whether outsiders perceive anything of this sort? I always refer to Chicago as a place of great balance &#8211; the place to go in order to make it big in the world while still maintaining a high quality of life. But I also see<br />
the &#8220;global city&#8221; competition on the horizon, and I wonder if this is enough to sustain us in competition with a rising Mumbai, Shanghai,etc. My hunch is that Paris and Silicon Valley will continue to attract people, due to the aforementioned mythology each embodies. </p>
<p>When I consider Chicago&#8217;s potential mythologies, one thing sticks out above all else &#8211; &#8220;A Great Urban Experiment.&#8221; Above all else, this seems like a reason people from anywhere might flock to Chicago. This idea has historical roots. Chicago was once a raw American frontier city where ambitious people came to perfect the ideal modern city. That spirit continues in the collective DNA. Long term, the city&#8217;s roots as a great business hub may be secondary to attracting the world&#8217;s greatest architects, urban planners, education experts, energy usage experts, transportation experts, etc. etc. In my opinion, it is most important for key people to think &#8220;Chicago&#8221; when they think &#8220;where should I go to help build the world&#8217;s highest quality 21st century city?&#8221; If that spirit continues, then Chicago will continue as a great transportation and global business hub.</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6009</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 23:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6009</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Aron, I have just recently come across your wonderful blog and I haven’t had a chance to read all of your past postings so I don’t know what you have written about the high cost of building subways in either New York or Chicago but I will offer this: in both cities subways are required in some of the most densely populated traffic corridors and the geology presents real challenges.&lt;/i&gt;

Tokyo is dense, too - denser than Chicago, in fact. It has earthquakes, and so many subway tunnels that new subway lines have to be built 20-30 meters underground. Unlike New York and Chicago, it doesn&#039;t have a regular street grid, which would enable easier construction under major streets.

The cost of a route-km of subway in Tokyo is $400-500 million. In New York, it&#039;s $1.3-1.7 billion. Chicago, I believe, is spending $650 million per km on the Circle Line; the cost of els in Chicago is among the problems that make it one of the few world cities where government works even worse than in New York.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Aron, I have just recently come across your wonderful blog and I haven’t had a chance to read all of your past postings so I don’t know what you have written about the high cost of building subways in either New York or Chicago but I will offer this: in both cities subways are required in some of the most densely populated traffic corridors and the geology presents real challenges.</i></p>
<p>Tokyo is dense, too &#8211; denser than Chicago, in fact. It has earthquakes, and so many subway tunnels that new subway lines have to be built 20-30 meters underground. Unlike New York and Chicago, it doesn&#8217;t have a regular street grid, which would enable easier construction under major streets.</p>
<p>The cost of a route-km of subway in Tokyo is $400-500 million. In New York, it&#8217;s $1.3-1.7 billion. Chicago, I believe, is spending $650 million per km on the Circle Line; the cost of els in Chicago is among the problems that make it one of the few world cities where government works even worse than in New York.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6008</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 23:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6008</guid>
		<description>I would second Aaron&#039;s notion of a &quot;transit system worthy of a great city&quot;.  I think the long-debated &quot;Circle Line&quot; is a big step in the right direction. Allowing transit from one part of the city to another without requiring a transfer through the Loop would not only cut down commute times, but also spur continued business development in often-overlooked communities. 

Question of the day - do Chicagoans care enough for such a thing, or are we content with a bus system that provides service E-W and N-S on nearly every major street? (Assuming stable CTA funding does not cut arrival frequencies, or eliminate routes entirely?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would second Aaron&#8217;s notion of a &#8220;transit system worthy of a great city&#8221;.  I think the long-debated &#8220;Circle Line&#8221; is a big step in the right direction. Allowing transit from one part of the city to another without requiring a transfer through the Loop would not only cut down commute times, but also spur continued business development in often-overlooked communities. </p>
<p>Question of the day &#8211; do Chicagoans care enough for such a thing, or are we content with a bus system that provides service E-W and N-S on nearly every major street? (Assuming stable CTA funding does not cut arrival frequencies, or eliminate routes entirely?)</p>
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		<title>By: Jake M.</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/11/25/thanksgiving-open-thread-your-civic-ambition/comment-page-1/#comment-6005</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1088#comment-6005</guid>
		<description>I want the City and County of Milwaukee to take the necessary steps to protect its underfunded transit system, as its voters wanted it to in a Nov. 2008 referendum. This includes being given the freedom by the state of Wisconsin to have more sources to fund transit and parks from, instead of being locked into the property tax, and have to compete with public safety and streets for dollars.

    I want the part of Milwaukee that is west of the Milwaukee River to act like a 21st Century city with new economy goals and an appreciation for quality of life. Unfortunately, much of this area acts like an old town with established political families and connections, with 20th century issues and fears. And I would like suburban Milwaukee to understand that they only thrive when the big city thrives, and that they can&#039;t run away from problems in their little bubble.

   
     As for Madison, you&#039;re a big city now, not just a college town with a state capital. You need to understand that growth and new building is not always your enemy, and that crime is a legitimate issue. The &#039;60s and &#039;70s are over, and you need to stop listening to people who don&#039;t understand that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want the City and County of Milwaukee to take the necessary steps to protect its underfunded transit system, as its voters wanted it to in a Nov. 2008 referendum. This includes being given the freedom by the state of Wisconsin to have more sources to fund transit and parks from, instead of being locked into the property tax, and have to compete with public safety and streets for dollars.</p>
<p>    I want the part of Milwaukee that is west of the Milwaukee River to act like a 21st Century city with new economy goals and an appreciation for quality of life. Unfortunately, much of this area acts like an old town with established political families and connections, with 20th century issues and fears. And I would like suburban Milwaukee to understand that they only thrive when the big city thrives, and that they can&#8217;t run away from problems in their little bubble.</p>
<p>     As for Madison, you&#8217;re a big city now, not just a college town with a state capital. You need to understand that growth and new building is not always your enemy, and that crime is a legitimate issue. The &#8217;60s and &#8217;70s are over, and you need to stop listening to people who don&#8217;t understand that.</p>
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