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	<title>Comments on: Columbus: Fantasy Transit Maps</title>
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	<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/</link>
	<description>Passionate About Cities</description>
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		<title>By: Wad</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6482</link>
		<dc:creator>Wad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6482</guid>
		<description>David, is Cincinnati proposing two streetcar lines that meet at Findlay Market, or is it one continuous line?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, is Cincinnati proposing two streetcar lines that meet at Findlay Market, or is it one continuous line?</p>
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		<title>By: David Cole</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6473</link>
		<dc:creator>David Cole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6473</guid>
		<description>As promised, the Cincinnati Streetcar map:

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/12/20/new-streetcar-route-map/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As promised, the Cincinnati Streetcar map:</p>
<p><a href="http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/12/20/new-streetcar-route-map/" rel="nofollow">http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/12/20/new-streetcar-route-map/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6221</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6221</guid>
		<description>Matt, did you make that St. Louis map?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, did you make that St. Louis map?</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6175</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6175</guid>
		<description>Nick, I only looked at your second map, but it&#039;s not very well thought-out. You&#039;re repeating the BART error of prioritizing service to far-flung suburbs instead of urban connections. The hub and spoke system you&#039;ve drawn, with spokes extending up to 20 miles away from the center, works for a commuter rail system that has a lot of local urban rail to connect to. For light rail, it&#039;s a disaster. Calgary has a hub and spoke system too, but the spokes there extend 8-12 miles from the center, and most extension projects add new spokes instead of extend existing spokes further out into the exurbs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, I only looked at your second map, but it&#8217;s not very well thought-out. You&#8217;re repeating the BART error of prioritizing service to far-flung suburbs instead of urban connections. The hub and spoke system you&#8217;ve drawn, with spokes extending up to 20 miles away from the center, works for a commuter rail system that has a lot of local urban rail to connect to. For light rail, it&#8217;s a disaster. Calgary has a hub and spoke system too, but the spokes there extend 8-12 miles from the center, and most extension projects add new spokes instead of extend existing spokes further out into the exurbs.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Bilz</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6167</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Bilz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6167</guid>
		<description>i&#039;ve made numerous fantasy transit maps, specifically for Indianapolis. here&#039;s one of my favorites:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp;hl=en&amp;msa=0&amp;msid=110174405593587366087.00044c3ed19c807d61478&amp;t=p&amp;z=11

i&#039;ve got plenty of others, but this one is the most complete. it grew out of an &quot;alternative histories&quot; thought experiment, presupposing that Indy&#039;s original streetcar system was never dismantled but maintained and expanded as the primary mode of public transit in the city. as such, this map uses several &quot;streets&quot; that don&#039;t really exist anymore, having been paved over with highways or development. this map is pure fantasy, but i&#039;ve also developed several i think could work in real life, using Light Rail:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp;hl=en&amp;msa=0&amp;msid=110174405593587366087.0004469ce76fe7261eb7e&amp;t=k&amp;z=10

enjoy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ve made numerous fantasy transit maps, specifically for Indianapolis. here&#8217;s one of my favorites:<br />
<a href="http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp;hl=en&amp;msa=0&amp;msid=110174405593587366087.00044c3ed19c807d61478&amp;t=p&amp;z=11" rel="nofollow">http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp;hl=en&amp;msa=0&amp;msid=110174405593587366087.00044c3ed19c807d61478&amp;t=p&amp;z=11</a></p>
<p>i&#8217;ve got plenty of others, but this one is the most complete. it grew out of an &#8220;alternative histories&#8221; thought experiment, presupposing that Indy&#8217;s original streetcar system was never dismantled but maintained and expanded as the primary mode of public transit in the city. as such, this map uses several &#8220;streets&#8221; that don&#8217;t really exist anymore, having been paved over with highways or development. this map is pure fantasy, but i&#8217;ve also developed several i think could work in real life, using Light Rail:</p>
<p><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp;hl=en&amp;msa=0&amp;msid=110174405593587366087.0004469ce76fe7261eb7e&amp;t=k&amp;z=10" rel="nofollow">http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp;hl=en&amp;msa=0&amp;msid=110174405593587366087.0004469ce76fe7261eb7e&amp;t=k&amp;z=10</a></p>
<p>enjoy</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6153</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 09:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6153</guid>
		<description>Calgary Transit has the spiel &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/Calgary_CTrain_Effective_Capital_Utilization.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, explaining how it got its system at remarkably low construction cost. The crib notes:

- The city had reserved rights of way for future expansion in the 1960s, before it even knew it was going to build light rail. Once it chose light rail over BRT and freeways, it was easy to build the system.

- The city upzoned near stations and reconfigured the bus system to act as light rail feeders. It avoided building freeways to compete with light rail, and restricted the availability of parking downtown instead of mandating free parking as US Sunbelt cities do.

- To minimize construction cost, the C-Train is as at-grade as possible, and runs in a transit mall downtown instead of underground (though there are now plans for undergrounding because of the high ridership).

In addition, they don&#039;t say so, but I think one of the key factors for high ridership is the compact nature of the C-Train. The system doesn&#039;t extend very far into the suburbs, instead serving the closer urban neighborhoods, where TOD is more feasible. You can see the difference on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.radicalcartography.net/subways.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Radical Cartography&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calgary Transit has the spiel <a href="http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/Calgary_CTrain_Effective_Capital_Utilization.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>, explaining how it got its system at remarkably low construction cost. The crib notes:</p>
<p>- The city had reserved rights of way for future expansion in the 1960s, before it even knew it was going to build light rail. Once it chose light rail over BRT and freeways, it was easy to build the system.</p>
<p>- The city upzoned near stations and reconfigured the bus system to act as light rail feeders. It avoided building freeways to compete with light rail, and restricted the availability of parking downtown instead of mandating free parking as US Sunbelt cities do.</p>
<p>- To minimize construction cost, the C-Train is as at-grade as possible, and runs in a transit mall downtown instead of underground (though there are now plans for undergrounding because of the high ridership).</p>
<p>In addition, they don&#8217;t say so, but I think one of the key factors for high ridership is the compact nature of the C-Train. The system doesn&#8217;t extend very far into the suburbs, instead serving the closer urban neighborhoods, where TOD is more feasible. You can see the difference on <a href="http://www.radicalcartography.net/subways.html" rel="nofollow">Radical Cartography</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Munson</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6144</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Munson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6144</guid>
		<description>for Alon and The Urbanophile:

I was intrigued by Alon&#039;s comments about how ridership was high in some cities without compactness; citing Calgary among others.

Perhaps sometime we can have a more focused discussion of this as it strikes me as a strategic issue for getting out from under transit&#039;s present pile of rocks: government&#039;s are broke, their monopoly has made capital improvements  astronomically expensive and the private sector has high obstacles from entering.

What does Calgary or some other low-density success story do that can be specific next-steps to increase ridership ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>for Alon and The Urbanophile:</p>
<p>I was intrigued by Alon&#8217;s comments about how ridership was high in some cities without compactness; citing Calgary among others.</p>
<p>Perhaps sometime we can have a more focused discussion of this as it strikes me as a strategic issue for getting out from under transit&#8217;s present pile of rocks: government&#8217;s are broke, their monopoly has made capital improvements  astronomically expensive and the private sector has high obstacles from entering.</p>
<p>What does Calgary or some other low-density success story do that can be specific next-steps to increase ridership ?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Munson</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6142</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Munson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6142</guid>
		<description>To Alon and west town ed:
Seems like this thread wants to keep going and, interestingly, we keep improving on the comments of one another.
(although we are off the topic of fantasy maps.)

But as a key lesson for every major Midwestern city.... The CTA is an excellent example of how difficult it is to update a system after it has been built; especially so when government lets its planning lapse. 

The CTA has been trying to modify the hub-and-spoke for over a decade with an Ashland corridor that could connect 4 METRA lines and 4 CTA lines. Because of local politics (a weak planning authority), CTA&#039;s poor management (fiscal and marketing) and the larger economic forces that mitigate against transit, progress on achieving inter-connectivity on the Ashland corridor is embarrassingly slow.

If this corridor had been part of the CTA&#039;s early post-war priorities and we have paid less homage to expressways, we today would have the benefits of an excellent Ashland corridor and Chicago&#039;s inner-city would not have declined as much and its current rebound would have been more efficient.

We are attempting not to repeat history with CMAP&#039;s 2040 Plan and I encourage all Chicagoland citizens to add their comments. To catch up on the Plan&#039;s process, go to the home page of www.cmap.illinois.gov and click on one of its top stories &quot;The Preferred Scenario.&quot;  This is a draft of the second-to-last phase before the 30 year Plan is approved in 2010. I am on its Citizen Advisory Committee, so feel free to send me your comments. (robertmunson@earthlink.net). A revision for public comment on the web should be available in January. So beat the holiday rush and send me your comments now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Alon and west town ed:<br />
Seems like this thread wants to keep going and, interestingly, we keep improving on the comments of one another.<br />
(although we are off the topic of fantasy maps.)</p>
<p>But as a key lesson for every major Midwestern city&#8230;. The CTA is an excellent example of how difficult it is to update a system after it has been built; especially so when government lets its planning lapse. </p>
<p>The CTA has been trying to modify the hub-and-spoke for over a decade with an Ashland corridor that could connect 4 METRA lines and 4 CTA lines. Because of local politics (a weak planning authority), CTA&#8217;s poor management (fiscal and marketing) and the larger economic forces that mitigate against transit, progress on achieving inter-connectivity on the Ashland corridor is embarrassingly slow.</p>
<p>If this corridor had been part of the CTA&#8217;s early post-war priorities and we have paid less homage to expressways, we today would have the benefits of an excellent Ashland corridor and Chicago&#8217;s inner-city would not have declined as much and its current rebound would have been more efficient.</p>
<p>We are attempting not to repeat history with CMAP&#8217;s 2040 Plan and I encourage all Chicagoland citizens to add their comments. To catch up on the Plan&#8217;s process, go to the home page of <a href="http://www.cmap.illinois.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.cmap.illinois.gov</a> and click on one of its top stories &#8220;The Preferred Scenario.&#8221;  This is a draft of the second-to-last phase before the 30 year Plan is approved in 2010. I am on its Citizen Advisory Committee, so feel free to send me your comments. (robertmunson@earthlink.net). A revision for public comment on the web should be available in January. So beat the holiday rush and send me your comments now.</p>
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		<title>By: west town ed</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6134</link>
		<dc:creator>west town ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 03:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6134</guid>
		<description>Chicago&#039;s public transport is organized as a centralized system (with the downtown Loop as the focus) because when it was built, and improved in later years, that&#039;s where people needed to go for shopping (State Street), entertainment (Randolph Street), the financial district (LaSalle Street) and culture (South Michigan Avenue).  Today, people may not see the need for this hub-and-spoke system but it was absolutely vital at the time.  Time for a factoid: when the new and grand Marshall Field store opened on State Street in the early 1900&#039;s, 200,000 people entered the doors.  How do you think they got there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chicago&#8217;s public transport is organized as a centralized system (with the downtown Loop as the focus) because when it was built, and improved in later years, that&#8217;s where people needed to go for shopping (State Street), entertainment (Randolph Street), the financial district (LaSalle Street) and culture (South Michigan Avenue).  Today, people may not see the need for this hub-and-spoke system but it was absolutely vital at the time.  Time for a factoid: when the new and grand Marshall Field store opened on State Street in the early 1900&#8217;s, 200,000 people entered the doors.  How do you think they got there?</p>
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		<title>By: Alon Levy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/02/columbus-fantasy-transit-maps/comment-page-1/#comment-6124</link>
		<dc:creator>Alon Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 23:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1101#comment-6124</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know how any of those maps works with the city it&#039;s supposed to be in. But the New Orleans map works well with itself, with a good combination of linear and circular lines and plenty of transfers. The Cincinnati map is also fairly coherent, for being less ambitious. But the St. Louis map looks weird - it has too many U-shaped and noose-shaped lines, and very little connectivity in East St. Louis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know how any of those maps works with the city it&#8217;s supposed to be in. But the New Orleans map works well with itself, with a good combination of linear and circular lines and plenty of transfers. The Cincinnati map is also fairly coherent, for being less ambitious. But the St. Louis map looks weird &#8211; it has too many U-shaped and noose-shaped lines, and very little connectivity in East St. Louis.</p>
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