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	<title>Comments on: St. Louis: Gateway Arch Grounds Design Competition</title>
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	<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/</link>
	<description>Passionate About Cities</description>
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		<title>By: Daron</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6414</link>
		<dc:creator>Daron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6414</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m inclined to agree with you guys.  I don&#039;t think a lid is necessarily the answer, more usable overpasses would be fine for the basic connection problem.  

There are many cheaper solutions that can be considered to better connect the gateway mall to the gateway arch.  If you look at the design areas in detail, scroll down here,
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21520893/Jefferson-National-Expansion-Memorial-General-Mangement-Plan-Redevelopment-Alternatives-Tables-and-Images

You&#039;ll see that the main design area were&#039;re talking about is confined to the highway border along the arch grounds.  

Up there at the northern corner though there&#039;s a real problem.  The road elevates east to go across the eads bridge and elevates north to form a raised highway that creates an pretty long and unworkable barrier through the northern half of the city.  We concerned citizens, think that should go too, though it is&#039;t in the cards for the competition.  
You can see an image of it on wikipedia here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_70_in_Missouri#St._Louis
There&#039;s a great unused dead space under the road.  If we keep the highway for several more decades, then we&#039;ll have to do something with that space.  The roof is there, I think we could build some walls and put a street scape on either side, but then again... that takes rezoning, initative, and money.  We only have so much political capital, removal is our goal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m inclined to agree with you guys.  I don&#8217;t think a lid is necessarily the answer, more usable overpasses would be fine for the basic connection problem.  </p>
<p>There are many cheaper solutions that can be considered to better connect the gateway mall to the gateway arch.  If you look at the design areas in detail, scroll down here,<br />
<a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/21520893/Jefferson-National-Expansion-Memorial-General-Mangement-Plan-Redevelopment-Alternatives-Tables-and-Images" rel="nofollow">http://www.scribd.com/doc/21520893/Jefferson-National-Expansion-Memorial-General-Mangement-Plan-Redevelopment-Alternatives-Tables-and-Images</a></p>
<p>You&#8217;ll see that the main design area were&#8217;re talking about is confined to the highway border along the arch grounds.  </p>
<p>Up there at the northern corner though there&#8217;s a real problem.  The road elevates east to go across the eads bridge and elevates north to form a raised highway that creates an pretty long and unworkable barrier through the northern half of the city.  We concerned citizens, think that should go too, though it is&#8217;t in the cards for the competition.<br />
You can see an image of it on wikipedia here,<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_70_in_Missouri#St._Louis" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_70_in_Missouri#St._Louis</a><br />
There&#8217;s a great unused dead space under the road.  If we keep the highway for several more decades, then we&#8217;ll have to do something with that space.  The roof is there, I think we could build some walls and put a street scape on either side, but then again&#8230; that takes rezoning, initative, and money.  We only have so much political capital, removal is our goal.</p>
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		<title>By: cdc guy</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6394</link>
		<dc:creator>cdc guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6394</guid>
		<description>In the interest of regional cooperation, there are some images of Columbus, Indiana&#039;s bridges that might stimulate folks to do what Carl suggests above.  See

http://www.columbus.in.us/listings/index.cfm?action=showSub&amp;catID=336&amp;subcatID=2925&amp;startrange=All&amp;endrange=All&amp;substart=M&amp;subend=S&amp;notify=1

and scroll down to &quot;Front Door Bridge&quot; and &quot;Second Street Bridge&quot;.  Postcard images.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the interest of regional cooperation, there are some images of Columbus, Indiana&#8217;s bridges that might stimulate folks to do what Carl suggests above.  See</p>
<p><a href="http://www.columbus.in.us/listings/index.cfm?action=showSub&amp;catID=336&amp;subcatID=2925&amp;startrange=All&amp;endrange=All&amp;substart=M&amp;subend=S&amp;notify=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.columbus.in.us/listings/index.cfm?action=showSub&amp;catID=336&amp;subcatID=2925&amp;startrange=All&amp;endrange=All&amp;substart=M&amp;subend=S&amp;notify=1</a></p>
<p>and scroll down to &#8220;Front Door Bridge&#8221; and &#8220;Second Street Bridge&#8221;.  Postcard images.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6393</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6393</guid>
		<description>I agree that replacing the I-70 trench with a boulevard would be ideal. However, if that doesn&#039;t happen right away for whatever reason, then treat the trench as a river and make the bridges a major downtown focal point. Redesigned as \can&#039;t miss\ art installations, they could become destinations unto themselves and help pull visitors towards the Arch and river. The incorporation of sculptural lighting would make them especially appealing during the 6-month Midwestern Dark Season.

Rather than bare bones, functional structures, the Arch bridges could become THE postcard image of the re-energized downtown waterfront district initiative and a fine complement to the amazing Arch and redesigned grounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that replacing the I-70 trench with a boulevard would be ideal. However, if that doesn&#8217;t happen right away for whatever reason, then treat the trench as a river and make the bridges a major downtown focal point. Redesigned as \can&#8217;t miss\ art installations, they could become destinations unto themselves and help pull visitors towards the Arch and river. The incorporation of sculptural lighting would make them especially appealing during the 6-month Midwestern Dark Season.</p>
<p>Rather than bare bones, functional structures, the Arch bridges could become THE postcard image of the re-energized downtown waterfront district initiative and a fine complement to the amazing Arch and redesigned grounds.</p>
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		<title>By: Daron</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6383</link>
		<dc:creator>Daron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6383</guid>
		<description>This picture sums up the main point, 
http://www.travelingboy.com/ed/saintlousarch2.jpg


but click around here to see more
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanishingstl/3297676084/in/set-72157614259016816/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This picture sums up the main point,<br />
<a href="http://www.travelingboy.com/ed/saintlousarch2.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.travelingboy.com/ed/saintlousarch2.jpg</a></p>
<p>but click around here to see more<br />
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanishingstl/3297676084/in/set-72157614259016816/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanishingstl/3297676084/in/set-72157614259016816/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daron</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6381</link>
		<dc:creator>Daron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6381</guid>
		<description>David, we are on the same page.  Getting the northside trail down to Jefferson Barracks--through the memorial--is one of my fondest wished.  Mirroring it on the other side naturally is just as nice.  Its in the long range plan.  The River Ring trail network is supposed to do it... eventually.

I agree with Michael as well.  This competition is 95% about a highway in local hearts and minds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, we are on the same page.  Getting the northside trail down to Jefferson Barracks&#8211;through the memorial&#8211;is one of my fondest wished.  Mirroring it on the other side naturally is just as nice.  Its in the long range plan.  The River Ring trail network is supposed to do it&#8230; eventually.</p>
<p>I agree with Michael as well.  This competition is 95% about a highway in local hearts and minds.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6380</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6380</guid>
		<description>The following comment was submitted by email from Michael Allen:

Aaron Renn,

I read your post on the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial competition, and have many thoughts that follow.  One that perhaps is not on the design competition radar screen just yet is that the competition affords St. Louis the chance to deal with the depressed and elevated section of I-70 that severs the Arch grounds from downtown.  A new river bridge carrying I-70 opens in 2016, and the depressed and elevated lanes will be downgraded to &quot;470&quot; or somesuch through-way connector designation.  Cross-country traffic won&#039;t need the lanes.  Locals never really did.

The timing of the competition hinges on completion of major improvements by the 50th anniversary of the Arch date.  That hopefully would not forestall an idea that could be as radical as removal of what will become, just a year after the anniversary, redundant infrastructure.  We in St. Louis&#039; urbanist community certainly hope that more than one entry in the competition either removes the highway section or reconciles it with the urban fabric.  As it stands, it&#039;s the worst design problem facing the Arch grounds.  I like to say that the Arch grounds is one of the nation&#039;s most cohesive urban landscapes surounded by some of the nation&#039;s worst highway infrastructure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The following comment was submitted by email from Michael Allen:</p>
<p>Aaron Renn,</p>
<p>I read your post on the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial competition, and have many thoughts that follow.  One that perhaps is not on the design competition radar screen just yet is that the competition affords St. Louis the chance to deal with the depressed and elevated section of I-70 that severs the Arch grounds from downtown.  A new river bridge carrying I-70 opens in 2016, and the depressed and elevated lanes will be downgraded to &#8220;470&#8243; or somesuch through-way connector designation.  Cross-country traffic won&#8217;t need the lanes.  Locals never really did.</p>
<p>The timing of the competition hinges on completion of major improvements by the 50th anniversary of the Arch date.  That hopefully would not forestall an idea that could be as radical as removal of what will become, just a year after the anniversary, redundant infrastructure.  We in St. Louis&#8217; urbanist community certainly hope that more than one entry in the competition either removes the highway section or reconciles it with the urban fabric.  As it stands, it&#8217;s the worst design problem facing the Arch grounds.  I like to say that the Arch grounds is one of the nation&#8217;s most cohesive urban landscapes surounded by some of the nation&#8217;s worst highway infrastructure.</p>
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		<title>By: David Larsen</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6375</link>
		<dc:creator>David Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6375</guid>
		<description>Daron, you are very correct.  Saw that on Dotage; post and comment sum up St. Louis pretty well and should send a wake up call to those who don&#039;t realize they are destroying our city.  I did not mean small city in a bad way at all, I actually see it as a strength, but I want st. louis to finally cover the basics and work on the small stuff before we try to put the cherry on top. The archgrounds are the perfect example of the divide that highway expansion and urban renewal has left us with to repair.  A lid over I-70 would definitely improve connections with the mall and downtown, but the removal of the interstate (from the poplar street to the new MR Bridge including reworking the interchanges ) and introduction of an at-grade boulevard would be a great way to could allow for actual redevelopment and possibly new development along the W, N, and S of the park.  What I really want out of this project is the removal of barriers so new and improved connections can be made with the park to stengthen the core of the city.

This shouldn&#039;t just be  for the MO side; I would like to see major improvements and new connections on the east side as well.  When the eads bridge touches down in East STL, it should be reworked (maybe along the metrolink line) to better turn into Collinsville Ave. Just an idea, but maybe small things like this, although they wouldn&#039;t be the cover story in LA magazine or anything, are more likely to spark subtle subconscious shifts in the way we experience our cities. I love seeing the grain elevator and wish the casino wasn&#039;t there (I hate seeing old aerials of even just 20 years ago and seeing how much its footprint has exploded recently).  Lastly maybe they could have a trail that circles all of the expanded grounds (both sides of the river) running through the current arch grounds, on the eads bridge, along the riverfront,rail line or 64 on the IL side, and then back over on the Mac Arthur bridge.  Just about 5 miles or so with some amazing views.

I could go on, the competition is a great opportunity for the region and I hope the final design helps residents of the area as much as it does visitors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daron, you are very correct.  Saw that on Dotage; post and comment sum up St. Louis pretty well and should send a wake up call to those who don&#8217;t realize they are destroying our city.  I did not mean small city in a bad way at all, I actually see it as a strength, but I want st. louis to finally cover the basics and work on the small stuff before we try to put the cherry on top. The archgrounds are the perfect example of the divide that highway expansion and urban renewal has left us with to repair.  A lid over I-70 would definitely improve connections with the mall and downtown, but the removal of the interstate (from the poplar street to the new MR Bridge including reworking the interchanges ) and introduction of an at-grade boulevard would be a great way to could allow for actual redevelopment and possibly new development along the W, N, and S of the park.  What I really want out of this project is the removal of barriers so new and improved connections can be made with the park to stengthen the core of the city.</p>
<p>This shouldn&#8217;t just be  for the MO side; I would like to see major improvements and new connections on the east side as well.  When the eads bridge touches down in East STL, it should be reworked (maybe along the metrolink line) to better turn into Collinsville Ave. Just an idea, but maybe small things like this, although they wouldn&#8217;t be the cover story in LA magazine or anything, are more likely to spark subtle subconscious shifts in the way we experience our cities. I love seeing the grain elevator and wish the casino wasn&#8217;t there (I hate seeing old aerials of even just 20 years ago and seeing how much its footprint has exploded recently).  Lastly maybe they could have a trail that circles all of the expanded grounds (both sides of the river) running through the current arch grounds, on the eads bridge, along the riverfront,rail line or 64 on the IL side, and then back over on the Mac Arthur bridge.  Just about 5 miles or so with some amazing views.</p>
<p>I could go on, the competition is a great opportunity for the region and I hope the final design helps residents of the area as much as it does visitors.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6373</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6373</guid>
		<description>I wonder what you think about the feasibility of using monolithic domes in cities? They seem to be pretty permanent, energy efficient, and weather-resistant, but all the pictures I&#039;ve seen are squat, which seems like a problem for density.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what you think about the feasibility of using monolithic domes in cities? They seem to be pretty permanent, energy efficient, and weather-resistant, but all the pictures I&#8217;ve seen are squat, which seems like a problem for density.</p>
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		<title>By: The Urbanophile</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6370</link>
		<dc:creator>The Urbanophile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6370</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments and insights.  Great quote from that other blog, Daron.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments and insights.  Great quote from that other blog, Daron.</p>
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		<title>By: Daron Dierkes</title>
		<link>http://www.urbanophile.com/2009/12/15/st-louis-gateway-arch-grounds-design-competition/comment-page-1/#comment-6345</link>
		<dc:creator>Daron Dierkes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.urbanophile.com/?p=1442#comment-6345</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t quite see what the implication is with &quot;the small city it is and should be,&quot; We&#039;re a medium sized city with a bit too much Chicago envy, but we are twice the size of Louisville or Memphis.  

I&#039;ll quote a local blogger (http://exquisitestruggle.blogspot.com/),
&quot;St. Louis is both North and South, epitomizes the libertarianism of the Frontier Thesis with the dependance of a rust-belt city, remains illogically smug while nursing an incredible inferiority complex, celebrates parochiality while striving for Chicago&#039;s urban might, mourns its extinct industrial heritage while actively suppressing that which is left, and fears change while being ignorant to its past potential. All told these unnerving dichotomies have resulted in confusion, weak leadership, and the wanton disregard and destruction of a city immensely more valuable than we appreciate.&quot;



To put the arch competition is the proper context though, the park its in is essentially a rectangle cut off from the rest of the city.  
To the south is a massive highway interchange where three highways converge on a single bridge.  
To the west is I-70, which will soon be rerouted across the river by a bridge many blocks north.  
To the north there is a massive parking garage.  
To the east, there&#039;s the river but just the river.  Its like the steps go down to cobble stones and then the water.  There&#039;s nothing to really do there.  ... well a few riverboats linger about.  There&#039;s been talk of filling up barges with dirt and having connectable floating park spaces out there in the water.  Very interesting.

On the other side of the river is East St. Louis: the Windsor of our Detroit.  They have the best view of us, and from the arch, they&#039;re what we are forced to look at.
They&#039;ve got a giant parking lot and industrial site, which the competition isn&#039;t going to touch. :o(  There&#039;s also a large haphazardly planned park that has been donated to the park service.  most powerful fountain in the world, and ugliest observation platform (brand new!).  Full map of the planned site here,
http://stlelsewhere.blogspot.com/2009/12/cityarchrivercompetition-what-this-blog.html


The local favorite is to remove the section of I-70 and build an at-grade boulevard, simple and easy.   Alternately there&#039;s the possibility of a lid over the depressed section of the highway, that has been called for for a very long time.  Or we may divert a road, but the most important thing is for the arch to connect to downtown.  Currently the arch grounds is an island.

CityGarden, is very much a part of this competition.  It&#039;s on the gateway mall, which leads to Kiener Plaza and the old courthouse, which are part of the competition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t quite see what the implication is with &#8220;the small city it is and should be,&#8221; We&#8217;re a medium sized city with a bit too much Chicago envy, but we are twice the size of Louisville or Memphis.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll quote a local blogger (<a href="http://exquisitestruggle.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://exquisitestruggle.blogspot.com/</a>),<br />
&#8220;St. Louis is both North and South, epitomizes the libertarianism of the Frontier Thesis with the dependance of a rust-belt city, remains illogically smug while nursing an incredible inferiority complex, celebrates parochiality while striving for Chicago&#8217;s urban might, mourns its extinct industrial heritage while actively suppressing that which is left, and fears change while being ignorant to its past potential. All told these unnerving dichotomies have resulted in confusion, weak leadership, and the wanton disregard and destruction of a city immensely more valuable than we appreciate.&#8221;</p>
<p>To put the arch competition is the proper context though, the park its in is essentially a rectangle cut off from the rest of the city.<br />
To the south is a massive highway interchange where three highways converge on a single bridge.<br />
To the west is I-70, which will soon be rerouted across the river by a bridge many blocks north.<br />
To the north there is a massive parking garage.<br />
To the east, there&#8217;s the river but just the river.  Its like the steps go down to cobble stones and then the water.  There&#8217;s nothing to really do there.  &#8230; well a few riverboats linger about.  There&#8217;s been talk of filling up barges with dirt and having connectable floating park spaces out there in the water.  Very interesting.</p>
<p>On the other side of the river is East St. Louis: the Windsor of our Detroit.  They have the best view of us, and from the arch, they&#8217;re what we are forced to look at.<br />
They&#8217;ve got a giant parking lot and industrial site, which the competition isn&#8217;t going to touch. <img src='http://www.urbanophile.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> (  There&#8217;s also a large haphazardly planned park that has been donated to the park service.  most powerful fountain in the world, and ugliest observation platform (brand new!).  Full map of the planned site here,<br />
<a href="http://stlelsewhere.blogspot.com/2009/12/cityarchrivercompetition-what-this-blog.html" rel="nofollow">http://stlelsewhere.blogspot.com/2009/12/cityarchrivercompetition-what-this-blog.html</a></p>
<p>The local favorite is to remove the section of I-70 and build an at-grade boulevard, simple and easy.   Alternately there&#8217;s the possibility of a lid over the depressed section of the highway, that has been called for for a very long time.  Or we may divert a road, but the most important thing is for the arch to connect to downtown.  Currently the arch grounds is an island.</p>
<p>CityGarden, is very much a part of this competition.  It&#8217;s on the gateway mall, which leads to Kiener Plaza and the old courthouse, which are part of the competition.</p>
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